Pentagon says ships harassed by Iran

[Old Round Guy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080107/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_navy_iran

Excerpt

By PAULINE JELINEK, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - In what U.S. officials called a serious provocation, Iranian Revolutionary Guard boats harassed and provoked three U.S. Navy ships in the strategic Strait of Hormuz, threatening to explode the American vessels.

U.S. forces were on the verge of firing on the Iranian boats in the early Sunday incident, when the boats turned and moved away, a Pentagon official said. "It is the most serious provocation of this sort that we've seen yet," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record.

End excerpt


This was also reported on CNN this morning.

Keeping in mind that about a year ago the Iranians did in fact kidnap several British sailors, does this appear to you that the bush administration is trying to pull another "Gulf of Tonkin" incident?

Does he actually think we've forgotton about that?

Does he actually think HE CAN GET AWAY WITH SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

That incident leads to all kinds of questions.......

[freewolf46]

I wouldn't believe a thing coming out of this administrations mouth anymore. No Bush isn't stupid enough to believe he could pull another Gulf of Tonkin incident, but he IS arrogant enough to think he can pull one and if that is what he has to do to try and make the country elect a war monger, he damn well will.

And quite honestly, after listening to the democratic debate the other night, it doesn't matter which top candidate gets in, we will have more war. I thought I was listening to the republicans after listening to Obama and Hillary display their thoughts on Pakistan. They both pretty much said that they are not for ending war now, but just getting out of Iraq and into what they believe is a more legitimate war.

I am voting for Ron Paul for many reasons and one primarily is for conservative causes of smaller government, but honestly if I was a democrat, I would vote for Kucinich in the primaries.

Now Kucinich has even less of a chance in his party than Paul does in his, but if it turns out that one of the major republicans gets the nomination and somehow Edwards was to get the democratic nomination, I would vote for Edwards. At least he speaks out against corporatism.

These other clowns are just dying to get into Iran and/or Pakistan and McCain now sees nothing wrong with being in Iraq for 100 years.

Would I put anything past the war machine? Heck no. McCain, Romney, Huckster, Thompson, Clinton, and Obama will only bring more war. Count on it. That's why anyone else is drowned out and the powers that be will do all they need to in order to get that fear back up there in time for the vote.

I have really had it and I hope there is enough people in this country from both sides to shut down these war puppets from either side. If we had any brains we would unite from both sides and pick one of the others. Our future depends on it.

[JIMV]

If they get too close, warn them and if ignored, use the Chain-Gun. A few score 25MM rounds in an Iranian patrol boat will get their attention.

[Old Round Guy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d8MIENVtKw

[Old Round Guy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080107/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_us_navy

Excerpt

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran - Iran's Foreign Ministry said Monday that a confrontation between Iranian boats and U.S. Navy ships in the Persian Gulf over the weekend was "something normal" and was resolved. It suggested the Iranian boats had not recognized the U.S. vessels.


The Pentagon said that in the incident early Sunday, five small Iranian boats repeatedly "charged" U.S. warships in the Gulf's Hormuz Strait and dropped boxes in the water. The boats warned the U.S. ships that they would set up "explosions," a U.S. Defense Department official said.

The U.S. craft were on the verge of opening fire when the Iranian boats fled, the official said, calling the incidident "the most serious provocation of its sort" in the Gulf. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record.

End excerpt

[Old Round Guy]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2239119,00.html

Excerpt

· Pentagon climbdown over 'you will explode' video
· Mystery remains over where voice came from

Ed Pilkington New York
Friday January 11, 2008
The Guardian


Doubts intensified last night over the nature of an alleged aggressive confrontation by Iranian patrol boats and American warships in the Persian Gulf on Sunday, after Pentagon officials admitted that they could not confirm that a threat to blow up the US ships had been made directly by the Iranian crews involved in the incident.

Several news sources reported that senior navy officials had conceded that the voice threatening to blow up the US warships in a matter of minutes could have come from another ship in the region, or even from shore.

The concession came on the day that a formal American complaint was lodged with Iran over the incident, and just 24 hours after President George Bush, on tour in the Middle East where he will be discussing policy towards Iran, warned Tehran to desist from such aggression and said any repetition would lead to "serious consequences".

End excerpt

[Drivesme]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2239119,00.html

Excerpt

· Pentagon climbdown over 'you will explode' video
· Mystery remains over where voice came from

Ed Pilkington New York
Friday January 11, 2008
The Guardian


Doubts intensified last night over the nature of an alleged aggressive confrontation by Iranian patrol boats and American warships in the Persian Gulf on Sunday, after Pentagon officials admitted that they could not confirm that a threat to blow up the US ships had been made directly by the Iranian crews involved in the incident.

Several news sources reported that senior navy officials had conceded that the voice threatening to blow up the US warships in a matter of minutes could have come from another ship in the region, or even from shore.

The concession came on the day that a formal American complaint was lodged with Iran over the incident, and just 24 hours after President George Bush, on tour in the Middle East where he will be discussing policy towards Iran, warned Tehran to desist from such aggression and said any repetition would lead to "serious consequences".

End excerpt

If you watch the video it is pretty clear that the voice is fake, no back ground noise at all from the 'threatening' voice.
If that had come from one of the speed boats, you would know it.

That in itself brings the entire incident under suspicion.

When did tiny little speed boats become a big threat to a war ship?

[Old Round Guy]

If you watch the video it is pretty clear that the voice is fake, no back ground noise at all from the 'threatening' voice.
If that had come from one of the speed boats, you would know it.

That in itself brings the entire incident under suspicion.

When did tiny little speed boats become a big threat to a war ship?



Boats as small as those could carry a variety of armament, including surface to surface missiles that could inflict some pretty severe damage.

[Old Round Guy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_us_navy

Excerpt

CAIRO, Egypt - The U.S. Navy said Friday that one of its ships fired warning shots at a small Iranian boat in the Strait of Hormuz in December during one of two serious encounters that month.

The USS Whidbey Island fired the warning shots on Dec. 19 in response to a small Iranian boat that was rapidly approaching it, said a U.S. Navy official.

"One small (Iranian) craft was coming toward it, and it stopped after the Whidbey Island fired warning shots," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

It was the first official confirmation that the United States had fired warning shots in any recent confrontation with Iran in the Gulf.

In the second incident that month, the USS Carr encountered three small Iranian craft on Dec. 22, two of which were armed, said the official. The USS Carr did not fire warning shots, but sent warning blasts on the ships whistle, which caused the boats to turn around.

End excerpt


Two reasons for this post.

One, to emphasize the need for caution on the part of those commanders, and two, to point out that they will indeed take necessary steps to insure the safety of their ships and crews.

A third reason to point out that it's probably not an isolated incident, but it can be something that the bush administration might blow out of proportion to escalate tensions against Iran. Not to say that Iran is blameless.

[JIMV]

warning shots are what we do when we get serious...

[Drivesme]

Boats as small as those could carry a variety of armament, including surface to surface missiles that could inflict some pretty severe damage.
I understand that but really, zipping around they way they were, I just can't see where they were much of a threat.

[Drivesme]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_us_navy

Excerpt

CAIRO, Egypt - The U.S. Navy said Friday that one of its ships fired warning shots at a small Iranian boat in the Strait of Hormuz in December during one of two serious encounters that month.

The USS Whidbey Island fired the warning shots on Dec. 19 in response to a small Iranian boat that was rapidly approaching it, said a U.S. Navy official.

"One small (Iranian) craft was coming toward it, and it stopped after the Whidbey Island fired warning shots," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

It was the first official confirmation that the United States had fired warning shots in any recent confrontation with Iran in the Gulf.

In the second incident that month, the USS Carr encountered three small Iranian craft on Dec. 22, two of which were armed, said the official. The USS Carr did not fire warning shots, but sent warning blasts on the ships whistle, which caused the boats to turn around.

End excerpt


Two reasons for this post.

One, to emphasize the need for caution on the part of those commanders, and two, to point out that they will indeed take necessary steps to insure the safety of their ships and crews.

A third reason to point out that it's probably not an isolated incident, but it can be something that the bush administration might blow out of proportion to escalate tensions against Iran. Not to say that Iran is blameless.

No doubt that this worthless president would use something like this to fire up the 'base' of lemmings to start yet another war.
I think that is why you have the fake 'threatening' voice, which the pentagon admits was not recorded with the video but added later, to scare the lemmings.

[JIMV]

I understand that but really, zipping around they way they were, I just can't see where they were much of a threat.

It depends on their intent. They could mine the area in front of the US ships, someting very hard to avoid in close waters. They could do the Cole attack scenario. They could have missiles. Heck, even small arms colud be a problem. Pirates off Somalia launch their attacks with RPG's into the bridge.

We specifically installed 25 and 30MM chain guns to take out speedboats if threatened.

If the iranians continue to play chicken, they will eventually lose a boat or so.

[Drivesme]

It depends on their intent. They could mine the area in front of the US ships, someting very hard to avoid in close waters. They could do the Cole attack scenario. They could have missiles. Heck, even small arms colud be a problem. Pirates off Somalia launch their attacks with RPG's into the bridge.
Very few of those could be done the way they were zipping around, the mine maybe but with that many eyes on them, not much chance of hitting one.

We specifically installed 25 and 30MM chain guns to take out speedboats if threatened.
You in the Navy now jimmy??:rolleyes:

If the iranians continue to play chicken, they will eventually lose a boat or so.
If it is the Iranians.
I simply do not trust anything, anything at all, that this worthless president or his worthless administration has to say.

The republicans at the debate last night have shown just how stupid they are when it comes to foreign policy, not one of them can be trusted with the nation.

[JIMV]

I'm a navy retiree....1974-1994, surface line....

[NuclearShadows]

So the NY Times is reporting today (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/washington/12navy.html) with commentary from Lt. Gen. Paul K. Van Riper, a 41 year veteran Marine. Remember him? Back in 2002 he was the red commander of the red team, the enemy, in the Millennium Challenge 2002 (http://www.google.com/search?q=Millennium+Challenge+2002&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS241US241), the largest war game ever held. General Van Riper resigned soon after, concerned that the wargame would serve to merely reinforce an increasing notion of infallibility within the U.S. military rather than serve as a learning experience. He was pissed because he won the game with unconventional tactics and then the pentagon cheated and started the game over and said the good guys won. In today’s article he reveals that he sunk the “good guys” ships with similar tactics with small boats, modeling his attack after how ants in a group can surprise and overcome a much larger prey….

[Notus Lotus]

Question about rules in international waters....if they're considered international waters, what does it matter who was there? And let's be real, these waters are off the coast of Iran, not America, so it seems to me any threat originated with the US when they arrived.

[Notus Lotus]

Threatening voice from Iran incident may be famous heckler. The recent controversy over an incident in the Strait of Hormuz involving five Iranian speedboats was punctuated by an allegation that an Iranian voice warned a U.S. ship, “I am coming to you. You will explode in a few minutes.” But the voice “may have come from a locally famous heckler well known to Navy crews.” The Navy Times reports:

In recent years, American ships operating in the Middle East have had to contend with a mysterious but profane voice widely known as the “Filipino Monkey,” likely more than one person, who listens in on ship-to-ship radio traffic and then jumps on the net shouting insults and epithets.

Rick Hoffman, a retired captain who commanded the cruiser Hue City and spent many of his 17 years at sea in the Gulf was subject to the renegade radio talker repeatedly, often without pause during the so-called “Tanker Wars” of the late 1980s.

“For 25 years there’s been this mythical guy out there who, hour after hour, shouts obscenities and threats,” he said. “He could be tied up pierside somewhere or he could be on the bridge of a merchant ship.” […]

“He used to go all night long. The guy is crazy,” he said. “But who knows how many Filipino Monkeys there are? Could it have been a spurious transmission? Absolutely.”

http://thinkprogress.org/

[JIMV]

jimmy you lived off the Govt. teat for your entire life, you will be first in line when you blow out your 65 candles but you whine and cry and whine and cry that anyone else should get some help. You afraid your check is going bounce?
Make you look pretty hypocritical, complaining about someone else getting a check from the Govt. while you are standing line to cash your Govt. check.

Source junior, source. If your check comes as a result of services provided, you have a pension. If it comes because you breath, you have welfare. That is the basic economic system in the industrial world. That said, I also have a 401K and other savings to tide me over when that SS check is cut, as it will be before I can collect.

[JIMV]

Question about rules in international waters....if they're considered international waters, what does it matter who was there? And let's be real, these waters are off the coast of Iran, not America, so it seems to me any threat originated with the US when they arrived.

That is the secret of the international concept of international waters. Internation law advises tha anyone at all can navigate those waters. There is no threat while so doing unless a threat is made, ie; say a blockade anounced. Short of that the entire world can use those waters and under international law, blocking those routes is the illegal act and threat, not a legal transit.

[Notus Lotus]

That is the secret of the international concept of international waters. Internation law advises tha anyone at all can navigate those waters. There is no threat while so doing unless a threat is made, ie; say a blockade anounced. Short of that the entire world can use those waters and under international law, blocking those routes is the illegal act and threat, not a legal transit.

So, what's the big deal about the Iranian boats then? They had as much right to be there as anyone. Looked to me like they were joyriding.

[Bruce McAuley]

Not to say a guy couldn't pop up and fire a shoulder launched missile from close range out of one of those, but why?:confused:
They don't want war.
Counterproductive.:cool:

Bruce

[Notus Lotus]

Not to say a guy couldn't pop up and fire a shoulder launched missile from close range out of one of those, but why?:confused:
They don't want war.
Counterproductive.:cool:

Bruce

Did you see the closeup of the boats? Looked to me that they didn't have room for anybody else, and no shoulder launchers visible. I wonder if we'll ever know.

Here's an interesting comment from over at Firedog Lake:
"IMVHO, the Iranian weapon of choice in the Straits of Hormuz would be their short-range, nuclear tipped, Russian made anti-ship missile coming in at over Mach 2. The (Sunburn) skims the waves to avoid radar detection and then loops high and comes straight down. US claims it can knock it out, but the world’s militaries probably want to see it, to believe it. The Chinese have also bought Sunburns, because they would work well in any fight with us over Taiwan.

Also, fwiw, the Straits are the worst place for US Navy, capital ships. The Straits are two, very shallow, one-mile wide channels, through which 25% of the world’s oil flows. Sink a couple of super tankers (or US destroyers) in the Straits and it’s a world-wide depression.

OT, the geography is what drives our relationship with United Arab Emirates (Dubayi). They are right across the Straits of Hormuz from Iran." ~BooRadley at 9:06 a.m.

http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/12/come-saturday-morning-fakin-it/#comments

[Bruce McAuley]

Damn "Filipino Monkey" radio heckler, anyway!
Hey!
I went to Navy boot camp with the REAL "Filipino Monkeys", they're little guys but they can really work! No wonder they get the reputation of being on most of the ship traffic worldwide.
Maybe they are.:cool:

Bruce

[Notus Lotus]

Damn "Filipino Monkey" radio heckler, anyway!
Hey!
I went to Navy boot camp with the REAL "Filipino Monkeys", they're little guys but they can really work! No wonder they get the reputation of being on most of the ship traffic worldwide.
Maybe they are.:cool:

Bruce

I'm still wondering what the jet boats did that was so threatening. Jumped the wake? Spewed a big rooster tail?

The disembodied voice was a joke.

[NuclearShadows]

I'm still wondering what the jet boats did that was so threatening. Jumped the wake? Spewed a big rooster tail?

The disembodied voice was a joke.

Really…. Those boats must have been scary....

The USS Hopper is a equipped to destroy guided missiles, the USS Ingraham has Phalanx gun to shoot fast-moving surface craft and helicopters and the USS Port Royal has FMK 7 Mod 7 Aegis Weapon System, two 5"/54 caliber Mark 45 gun Mounts, two MK 41 Vertical Launching System (126 cells) capable of firing Standard surface-to-air missiles, Evolved Sea Sparrow missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles, two Harpoon Missile Quad-Canister Launchers, two MK 32 Mod 14 Three-Barrelled Torpedo Tube Mounts, two Mk 15 Mod 12 Phalanx Close-In Weapons System mounts, antisubmarine rockets, one Mk 36 Mod 2 Super Rapid Blooming Chaff System, and passive detection systems. The antisubmarine warfare suite consists of a trio of underwater surveillance equipments: hull mounted sonar, acoustic array sonar towed system, and two SH-60B LAMPS Mk III helicopters.

[JIMV]

What it is jimmy is proof of nothing other than our tax system.[/quote[\]

Your lack of understanding says nothing about the proof.

[quote]You keep harping on this 'fair share' thing yet you can not show where anyone other than you and the other righties are saying it.

Read the thread

You keep whining that the top 10% pay all the taxes, but you can't explain why you think that is bad.

That is self evident. If 90% of a society has little stake in it, beyond receiving goodies, then that society is prone to make bad decisions.

You also made the claim that "dems don't pay taxes' yet on your little chart here, very first line by the way, shows they pay MORE in taxes.

And you cannot read a chart either...sad.

But as I said this is proof of nothing, again you are proving the sky is blue.
You bring up something that no one questions, then prove it, then pat yourself on the back for doing it.

Read the post I rsponded to...you do realize that there are more folk on this thread than you alone and that they often have more to say. Sometimes that needs a response.

I gave up trying to prove anything to you long ago as you do not understand either the agument raised nor the proof offered, so why bother?

[Drivesme]

Well Drivesme, you could have fooled me by the post I cited and several that followed. Personally, it sounded to me like you're another of the draft-dodgers who don't give a damn about much at all.
I'm amazed that anyone, including jimmy, saw that as anything other than pushing buttons. When jimmy fell for it, hey I went with it.

BTW, the draft ended about 5 years before I was old enough to 'dodge' it.


NO Drivesme, it isn't bound to happen with every thead unless people like YOU AND JIMV make it happen.
Yes it is bound to happen, in most every thread, just how much did you expect from speed boats anyway??
No one causes it, threads just morph into something else.



You're right drivesme, I don't own the forum or any part of the internet.

Maybe I do take some things too seriously, but on a forum such as this I like to be able to read through it with having to wade through a bunch of crap like you and jimv .

I will excercise the same option that I took right at the beginning of the last forum when all this crap started happening between you, jimv and alias, I shall simply leave the forum. I will miss the forum and I will miss the people here, except for you and jimv.
Oh cut the drama, the Oscars are going to be canceled this year so you're not going to get an award.
We've heard this from you a hundred times.

[Drivesme]

[QUOTE=Drivesme;29955]What it is jimmy is proof of nothing other than our tax system.[/quote[\]

Your lack of understanding says nothing about the proof.
You proved our tax system is set up on a percentage basis, good job jimmy.
The sky is blue.







That is self evident. If 90% of a society has little stake in it, beyond receiving goodies, then that society is prone to make bad decisions.
You keep saying it is "self evident" yet you can't explain it.
Are you now claiming that 90% don't pay taxes and only "receive goodies"??



And you cannot read a chart either...sad.
No, I just read the part you didn't want me to, the first line, "total" proves your not telling the truth.



Read the post I rsponded to...you do realize that there are more folk on this thread than you alone and that they often have more to say. Sometimes that needs a response.
And i am free to respond to it just as you are jimmy.
I know you don't like having your 'sky is blue' proof being shown for what it is, but that is just too bad.

I gave up trying to prove anything to you long ago as you do not understand either the agument raised nor the proof offered, so why bother?
You keep saying that but I keep proving you wrong jimmy.
We all know the sky is blue, you don't need to prove that to us anymore, you can move on.......if you can.

[JIMV]

I think the thread has moved on....perhaps we should note that Iran has a very capable, if small navy and does most assuredly is a threat to our interests in the world.

[Bruce McAuley]

Any forum is only as good as the posters, and some WILL prove their point, come hell or high water.:rolleyes:
Looks like all your posts have been deleted so goodbye...
Some of us old Navy guys will hang in here anyway.
It ain't great, but it's way better than what's in second place.
Vaya con Dios.

I don't think those Sunburn missiles are nuclear tipped, unless they have depleted uranium in them for penetration purposes. Conventional explosives on a Sunburn are usually good enough to stop a destroyer, I'd imagine, or at the least do a hell of a lot of damage. Throwing speedboats at destroyers is not an option. Too wacky.

Bruce

[JIMV]

Here are the stats on a Sunburn

"The Moskit is powered by a ramjet engine and has an estimated top speed of Mach 2.5. It has a launch weight of 3,950kg and carries a payload of 300kg. The Moskit has a range of 120km (250km air-launched), but tests of the Moskit using a high trajectory showed the possibility of increasing its range to 300km.[3,7,8,] The air-launched version can be carried by Su-27 and Su-33 fighters. There is no known submarine-launched version of the Moskit.[9"

http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/exports/general/expmsl.htm

[Old Round Guy]

QUOTE=bruce mcauley;29976]Any forum is only as good as the posters, and some WILL prove their point, come hell or high water.:rolleyes:
Looks like all your posts have been deleted so goodbye...
Some of us old Navy guys will hang in here anyway.
It ain't great, but it's way better than what's in second place.
Vaya con Dios.

I don't think those Sunburn missiles are nuclear tipped, unless they have depleted uranium in them for penetration purposes. Conventional explosives on a Sunburn are usually good enough to stop a destroyer, I'd imagine, or at the least do a hell of a lot of damage. Throwing speedboats at destroyers is not an option. Too wacky.

Bruce[/QUOTE]


Bruce

I had a response to my IM to the moderator and I'm quite satisfied with the response and the action taken.

I'll stay around for a while and see what happens.

[GUS]

It is difficult, yet a mark of a mature person, to be able to be totally opposed to an ideology without having or showing hatred or anger toward those who support a different philosophy or way of thinking.

After spending some time in China I have developed some new, broader thinking on their method of government. Surprisingly I can see how their form of "communism" presents some positive effective results on both their population and their industrial efforts.

Sorry to get off track--continue on with your fighting:p

[Erika]

We just can't find a D.C. crowd to run with the ball.;)

[JIMV]

You have an entire party running with the ball. The dems are approaching 100% socialist, or worse. That is hardly capitalism. :eek:

[GUS]

http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/index.php?itemid=2917

The prez goes to Egypt and all Darth Vader got was a saber to rattle -because the "boat attacks by Iran" have proven to be ANOTHER LIE by this administration - so something for the VIP to play with instead of being able to invade yet another middle east country.